The boy was 6'3", he punched the man to the ground and was pounding Zimmerman's head in the pavement. There are witnesses, there is medical evidence, there is police reports. The next blow could have killed Zimmerman or seriously injured him.
It is a simple case of self defense. If you give someone the finger, and they come over and start beating you to death, you are entitled to use deadly force....

Inda-
The evidence released so far seems to indicate just that. However in most states Zimmerman would have been arrested (at a minimum) and charged with manslaughter.
The SYG law - if it is applicable in this case - will allow Zimmerman to walk free.

But lets play devils advocate here for a minute and assume Zimm doesn't have a gun.
The police arrive a minute after the altercation supposedly started just as they did here. They find Trayvon on top of Zimm beating the snot out of him.
Zimmerman accuses Trayvon of assaulting him from behind as he walked back to his vehicle.
What proof does he have? NONE - NADA - ZILCH - no one saw the first punch
It boils down to his word against Trayvons. If they let them both go after separating them no big deal. If they arrest Trayvon hell even I'd be screaming then, but I don't believe they would have made an arrest unless it was something innocuous like disorderly conduct by both men.
This is where SYG becomes so dangerous - because it allows the use of deadly force just for the perception of the threat of physical harm.
But the Police wanted an arrest that night and were told they didn't have enough evidence to over ride SYG after 7 cops investigated the scene and interviewed witnesses - none of whom saw the start of the fight but 1 of whom DID see Trayvon on top supposedly (and is adamantly sticking to their story apparently).
Its a senseless death, allowed to happen under very BAD legislation.

Best Regards
Vog

Indawindigoes wrote: LOL – Why does everyone echo what they think they know about this case as if it is already fact? Don’t believe half of what you read. People add their take and tell "little white lies" to up the side of the story they want to believe – all the time.
According to what has been released by the Sanford Police, the police report lists his height as 6’0” and his weight as 160 lbs. It lists Zimmerman as 5’9” with no weight given. The initial reports of Zimmerman’s weight came from stats in his 2005 arrest record and Trayvon’s mom put him at 150 lbs. and this is what caused the media to use the ”100 lb. difference in weight” claims. THAT was an honest mistake, as most adults don’t lose weight between the ages of 23 and 28 (especially in the USA, hehe). If someone had asked my mother or father my height or weight at age 17, I’m sure neither of them could have given accurate numbers.

WE have no idea where the personal stats used in the initial police reports came from. Did the police measure Trayvon’s height at the scene? Was the 5’9” that was reported by Zimmerman the answer he gave them when they asked his height? (It was listed as 5’10” in his 2005 mugshot) And why no weight? Where did they come up with the 160 lbs. for Trayvon? You think they just happened to have a full-body scale in the trunk and weighed him like a slab of meat at the scene? I doubt it.

There should now be accurate personal stats for both Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman - one from the autopsy report and the other from Zimmerman’s arrest record. Yet I have yet to hear of any media outlet willing to clarify this once and for all by using the powers they have to obtain these public records to publish the truth.
SO SAYS ZIMMERAMN. So you’ve talked to an eyewitness who saw what you just described? Maybe you should have your source give the Sanford police or prosecutor a call because that would go a long way in solving this case.
Again, witnesses to what? A scared 17 year old black boy in an unfamiliar neighborhood lashing out after “standing his ground” against a Hispanic stranger who was stalking him and started running after him? This could just as well be “the real story” as is Zimmerman’s. Even if Trayvon dealt the first initial punch, you have no idea what he was thinking as Zimmerman reached for his cell phone. Trayvon’s friend who was on the phone with him as the 2 first “exchanged words” says that from the sounds she heard she assumed Trayvon had been pushed and his phone headset knocked off his head as the phone call abruptly ended. Either of those scenarios is just as likely to have occurred as Zimmerman’s story.

Trayvon had every bit the right to stand his ground if he “reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force”.

Medical evidence? I haven’t seen it. If Zimmerman was so badly beaten why did he not seek medical attention that night? I’m sure that any after-the-fact “medical reports” will carry as much weight with a jury as the “professional opinion” of the physician assigned to the client by any ambulance-chasing attorney. It might help “legally”, but not in the mind of any jury who knows very well what that is all about. Besides, it still doesn’t answer the question of who physically initiated the fight. Zimmerman’s injuries are irrelevant if he was the initial aggressor.

Police reports? The only thing in the police reports that might collaborate Zimmerman’s “fearing for his life” story is from the one officer who reported that he heard Zimmerman saying that “I was yelling for someone to help but no one would help me”. No one saw “the take down” and it could very well have been Zimmerman who first “snapped” and initiated the physical altercation that lead to the shooting. THAT is the big mystery here. It doesn’t matter who outweighed or outsized who. If we can determine more conclusively just who’s voice it is we hear screaming for help on that 911 call, it would go a long way in determining if Zimmerman’s “story” is what he claims it to be.

Zimmerman has a known history of violence – one including jumping on a cop trying to arrest a friend – a felony assault that was later reduced. He also had been ordered to undertake “anger management” classes for a past grievance. Do we have any police reports that would indicate Trayvon Martin had ever been prone to unprovoked violence? There are plenty of stories out there trying to paint him as a thug – but NONE have yet been vetted in court. So YOU really have no idea as to what to believe about Trayvon or any history of violence. The same is true for all the other fake pictures and smears on his character that came in retaliation to the picture of Trayvon Martin as an “innocent boy” that was being painted by most of the media. One side was just as wrong as the other if any of it was intentionally deceptive.

Bottom line – The police did not believe Zimmerman’s story and found enough discrepancies in his account that they felt he should have been arrested that night. Lying on the witness stand at his bail hearing last week in regards to not knowing how old Trayvon was doesn’t help the public perception of his truthfulness in the matter. (He referred to Trayvon as a “kid” in his “late teens” in his call to the police.) I can’t wait to see if he takes the stand in his own defense at trial. If so, I have a feeling you’ll see just how honest a man George Zimmerman really is. Oh, and we all wish we could know if Zimmerman was "under the influence" at the time. We know Trayvon wasn't.

This case was a mess from day one. Whether it was a result of racism or incompetence, it still was not right. And like Vog, I hope it acts as a catalyst to rethink and remove these ridiculous "stand your ground" laws.

Be careful here Cleve this does nothing to clarify Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman or Trayvon could have been on top calling for help in subduing the other man. Or it could have been the man on the ground calling for help in defending himself.
As indicated by the now "court" testimony by officials of the police department we do not know who initiated the fight. This fact cannot be disputed in court now without a perjury charge being brought forward. Its now court record so to speak. That much we do know.
If the supposed eyewitness to seeing Trayvon on top of Zimmerman does not change his/her story and stays with Trayvon being on top Zimmermans story "rings" more true - as his injuries corroborate this. Medical records? EMTs apparently treated Zimm at the scene and photos show the head wounds. If Zimm sought private medical attention the day after we won't know until the trial just what was confirmed because those records are protected by HIPPA laws. IF Zimm released them to the Police then more than likely they support his claim.
Size, weight....not much to go on there - an unexpected punch can disorient a victim enough so that the other guy can get an advantage - but since there were no witnesses we won't know for sure.
No apparent racial motives if the enhanced audio stories are truthful.
Hearsay evidence not corroborated by any witnesses. How do you "hear" a push?

As for Zimm on the stand not knowing Trayvons age could THIS NOT be another "honest" mistake?If you're gonna give Trayvons Mom an "honest mistake" be fair and give Zimm one too !!! Considering that Mom would have bought Trays clothing for school I'd assume she knew his height and weight - so just how "honest" a mistake was this?

The more we believe one side versus the other the harder the verdict will be to accept from the other side.
As for Zimms history? 7 years ago and tainted (by his own admission) by alcohol. Trays recent suspension for traces of pot in his book bag could be viewed as MORE relevent information as far as being law abiding is concerned.(Whether you believe pot should be legalized seems to have an impact on whether this is important or not. Those who want it legalized dismiss this easily. Since it is AGAINST the CURRENT law a judge might not view it as a "minor" thing).

But I go back to "the night of the assault". The Police wanted manslaughter charges and were told "no" by someone - because they didn't have enough evidence to over come SYG. Unless something has changed since "the night of" I have to wonder if this arrest was politically motivated?
The Justice Dept investigation is still ongoing(?) but if any police investigative discrepancy was found at first glance that could change the outcome of this case they would have HAD to have notified the judicial system of this (and they may have to IF they find anything wrong with the police work)

If SYG is invoked, Zimmerman walks free............it's bad law.

Best Regards
Vog

Vog - So what has more weight in court if there are no eyewitnesses? Hearsay or the claims (alibi) of the accused victim? Again – NO ONE knows how the fight started. I only suggested either could be logical explanations.

And if you’ve never heard anyone drop the phone or lose their headset - or heard someone on the other end suddenly become physically distracted and lost connection, then you haven’t used a phone much. Usually the other person would call back right away to apologize and explain the scuffling noises heard. For me, it would probably be something like – “Oh my dog (or cat) jumped up on me” – but its’ usually something suddenly unexpected and beyond control of the person you were talking with. So yes, you would “hear” a headset being knocked off someone’s head.

I didn’t put the “honest mistake” on Trayvon’s mom (but you sure seem to have your doubts about her). I only said that the media coming to the “100 pound difference” conclusion was an honest mistake – and explained why. I also contend that size and height differences, either way, are irrelevant for anything other than the ”sympathy” of the public. “Supporters” from BOTH sides have exaggerated those differences for the same reasons.

If you know anything about weed – you’d know that it does not cause violent behavior – in fact it would tend to do just the opposite. If all teens who smoke pot are to be considered dangerous criminals, some 40% of them would be in jail by the time they are 18. It’s a non-issue, except for the ignorant “Refer Madness” and “Law and Order” crowd. It isn’t about being a “law abiding citizen” – especially if the law broken are irrelevant to the situation. If Zimmerman (or Trayvon) had 100 outstanding parking tickets would that be relevant to the case? Same thing.

Alcohol on the other hand does often lead to violence – and Zimmerman was not even tested. And that WOULD have been VERY relevant to his state of mind at the time of the shooting.

I just have a hard time believing that a (barely) 17 year old boy armed with nothing but a box of Skittles would run up to a 28 year old adult who was in the process of “returning to his car” and sucker punch him and attempt to take him down for no reason other than that he was following him.

I may be wrong, but I refuse to buy into the thug stereotype just because he was an African-American boy from Miami. From what I have seen, heard, or read - of all his attributes – from the “broken home”, to family income scale and work ethic, school grades, sports and activities, friends, computer games, online internet activity, interests in girls, dress and appearance, respect for authority, and yes pot smoking – would put him on par with any “average” teenage boy in America – even if he was white. On a scale of 1 to 10 – 1 being an angel and 10 being a murderous street thug, I’d give Trayvon Martin a 3, or 4 tops.

I think you (and many) don’t realize that we are no longer living in the 60s and 70s. School suspensions have become quite the common means of punishment. Back in our day it was a few swats on the ass with a paddle. “We” just don’t do that anymore – and there are many “zero tolerance” policies, though unfairly applied, of course.
Trayvon may have been entering some kind of “rebellious” phase – some suggest that may have included a propensity to fight - and maybe he was starting to fall in with “the wrong crowd”. But even none of that is alarmingly “unusual” for a teenage boy who has grown 6 inches in the past 3 years. That’s why his father took him into his custody during the suspension to have a talk with him (that he never had). But in the “big picture”, when compared to the frequency of such discipline today (especially among black teen boys), the suspension is not in itself an indication of a “lost youth”.

I realize that last paragraph takes away from my “gut feelings” expressed earlier, but I just want to make it clear that I can understand why conclusions could be drawn. It’s a tragedy – no matter how you look at it.

Even if Zimmerman is acquitted of all charges, I’d like to think that the incident changed his life enough for him to have learned from his mistake. I would not, and have never, demanded his blood in vengeance. And, despite what the paranoid Fox News crowd is worrying about, I doubt there would be any mass riots in the streets – as all that most ANYONE wanted out of this was an arrest, an "outside" investigation as to why no arrest was made that night, and a fair trial. If the prosecution is unable to prove a case to back the charges they filed – so be it. WE really don't know what other evidence or witnesses they might have. But until that day – which will be more than a year from now I’m sure – it’s all speculation and trial by theory and public opinion. And you know what they say about opinions… Opinions are like assholes – everyone has one. I’m just another asshole.

At least we agree on one thing. SYG laws gotta go.

The problem is just that Cleve - no witnesses.
What have you got left? Zimmermns version.
The prosecution has the burden of proof to show he's lying, Zimmerman doesn't have that burden, all his attorney has to do is instill any sort of doubt (reasonable or not) in the jury.
The fact that they can't PROVE how the fight started then throws this into a situation where you have to say just what DO we know?
Zimm had injuries that co-incide with his story - Pictures of his head show them.
Racism? Previous 911 calls show NO racism - he only answered questions when asked by dispatchers to describe the suspicious people. CNN did at first say he uttered a racial slur - but after enhancing the audio backed off on the "coons" and said it was "punks" (I can't for the life of me get Punks out of that audio but who knows?) - but if the enhancement is correct there's no way in hell to say Zimm was racist.
One eyewitness puts Trayvon on top - and is sticking by that story - others can't say for sure.
The audio tape calling for help was recorded on a phone I believe and not a good way to prove who was on top of whom (and both men could have been calling for help).
As for the alcohol - well, it's easily detected when you're in close proximity to the drinker - if Zimm was not slurring his words they may not have needed to do a field sobriety test. I would hope they did one at the station. Trayvon of course had a TOX screen done at autopsy. Routine for killings, I believe.
But lets face it - there's no doubt Zimm shot him. He stood there, did NOT run - handed the gun to the police, and co-operated fully with investigators.
The Police wanted to arrest and were told "No" - not even to manslaughter.
If the DOJ concludes the police work was good and the courts decide Zimmerman is "NOT GUILTY" I hope that there are no protests for "justice for Trayvon", and no threats on Zimmermans life because at that point the focus should change to the Florida legislature to demand the law be changed. But will it happen?
As for the weed? Yeah I know all about the mellow feeling you get and so on and yeah I know alcohol can make you feel aggressive that was not my point and you know it. Zimmerman apparently had an alcohol problem 7 years prior. Trayvon had a pot problem within DAYS of this incident. He was suspended from school for it. Zero tolerance or not - thats CURRENT problems NOT 7 years ago problems. You & I can sit here and agree that pot should be legalized but until it is you break the law by having it and you can't claim innocence if you deliberately break the law - not for speeding, not for pot, not for shop lifting, SORRY - THAT'S not happening, at least not in my book. You lose your innocence when you decide you can "get away" with something.
Zimmerman is no more a cold blooded killer than Trayvon is a drug addicted black thug. Neither description fits either one.
Zimmerman is a pussy, a wimp. He "hid" behind the strength or power that his gun provided for him - thats why I don't think he could have self inflicted the wounds - he's too chicken (and the thought had crossed my mind). So a wimp gets punched - what happens? Yep, he gets dazed confused and is probably afraid - and probably getting the shit kicked out of him.
But it doesn't matter about your past, it doesn't matter about your frame of mind, it doesn't matter if your drunk or high on pot - if you're getting the shit kicked out of you - you SHOOT.
Now as for Trayvons Mom - yeah I dislike her and it was over the trademark thing. That was crass at best but if Zimmerman is found not guilty and the Police did a thorough investigation then it will make her look like a gold digger. I think she is already but thats personal opinion.
I hope the prosecution has a LOT more evidence that we don't know about - I don't think Zimmerman is without guilt but the prosecution has to show BEYOND a reasonable doubt that the SYG laws were broken and after that bail hearing I have serious doubts about what they can prove given what has been released so far.
And, I hope the DOJ finds that Sanford PD screwed up badly but I have my doubts they will.

Best Regards
Vog